Advertising on podcasts and shows are a great marketing tool, and effective podcast advertising means improved conversion of your listeners, increasing sponsor reach and adding a tidy sum to your profits. In this episode, Tom Hazzard and Tracy Hazzard analyze podcast advertising and promotions to show us what works and what doesn’t. They share their strategies in crafting and deploying ads and promotions to best capture the audience’s interest. Tune in for more podcasting tips and tricks in this episode of Feed Your Brand.
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Podcast Advertising: Create Effective Ads And Promotions That Bring Results
Welcome to the show. We’re going to talk about podcast promotion and ad creation for what could be promoting your own products or services on your podcast or it could be an actual third-party sponsored ad.
We want to highlight the idea of it being promotions because that’s what’s most effective. If we’re trying to make an ad, ads don’t convert. Ads are brand awareness. That’s fine if that’s what you and your sponsor is going for. For the most part, there is probably some call to action with it. If you’ve got some call to action, we want to have that treated as a promotion. That’s what we’re going to be calling this on and off the way that we do it here. We also want to remind you that a lot of the things, if you’re reading in, your host probably doesn’t have the ability to do this unless you’re hosting with Podetize. Some of the things we’re going to mention here are Podetize only.
We will try to identify those, but sometimes we talk about it because we assume everyone should do this. It’s a user-friendly way to make sure that our ads and our promotions are converting. Sometimes your hosts don’t have these capabilities. Keep that in mind as you’re reading and you’re like, “I don’t know how to do that.” Feel free to message us. We’ll try to guide you. You may not be able to do it with your existing host or your existing editors. Keep that in mind as we go forward here. I want to talk about the length first because that’s the first part that most people ask.
Sometimes I have heard some ads that are 2 1/2 or 3-minute long and I’m like, “What?” It gets to be a bit much in a podcast.
We hear again and again from listeners, especially binge listeners who are your most active listeners, “Who are the ones who are going to buy?” They’re the ones that convert the most because they’ve listened to you and they trust you. We hear from them that these long lengthy ads that are infomercial-like are annoying. They start to make you not like your show anymore. This is where people drop off and stop listening. We see people who regularly do this, a drop off in listenership over time. It’s a gradual drop-off, but it happens.
Every so often, doing one, when it’s a truly useful tool or product that you use yourself where you’re treating it like that, then go ahead and make an episode of it, instead of these lengthy ads. Do a small promo where the promo references the episode of which you’re talking about. It’s like, “If you’d like to find more about how this great supplement helps you fight anti-aging or boost your immunity, then go to this episode where we discuss it in length.”
Give them the episode name and the episode number. Don’t do numbers unless you are going to keep it clean. Once you hit over 300, your numbers change on Apple and that could hurt you. We’re not a fan of the numbering. Use that to help yourself if you want to go into a deeper dive, especially with something that you’re affiliate marketing. Keep it short like 30 seconds.
A maximum of 45 seconds is where we’d like to keep it at max if you have to. Some of that is transitioned in music, so you can get away with that, but we’d like to keep it tight under 30 seconds.
Sometimes even fifteen seconds will work. It depends on what you’re trying to communicate, but you want to tighten up any script you will write. We always talk about that with our podcasters. We recommend you never script your episodes that we firmly believe. However, when it comes to your ads, script that.
You want to be concise and conciseness comes from scripting it. Here’s the thing, when you script it, you need to speak it. What I like to do is write it, read it out loud to myself, listen to it back, and then edit it again and then do that again. Sometimes people give us ads. When I’m writing an ad, the first thing I do is speak it and send it to my sponsor. I send it to my advertiser and I say, “This is what you said. I don’t think it’s the best solution and here is why. First off, it’s too long. It’s awkward in the way that these words flow when you speak. It looks fine when you read it. Here are my recommended edits.”
I give them that verbally. I never give it to them in writing. I give them the verbal and they’ll usually go, “That’s amazing. I love that one. The energy is good.” Go for that. How I do it is I don’t red line and edit their copy because they can get frustrated and upset with you over that. Instead, I let them hear it because hearing it is a demonstration of how it’s going to be received by the listener. Length, fifteen-second ones are great for the little promotion saying, “This episode is sponsored by such and such. You can find out more information at URL.”
Do something short and simple like that. Keep it short and sweet. It’s easy. Those are our recommendations on length. We found it to work again and again. Ad spot doesn’t matter on the length. If you’ve already done a lengthy intro, you want your first ad or your first promotion running it right after it short. You ran this lengthy ad for the show essentially. You try to do that at the very end.
It’s what we call pre-roll position and post-roll position. Keep those to fifteen seconds if you can. Unless your whole episode is short, then you don’t have many choices in where you’re going to put that. Those are our length recommendations. We talked a little bit about copy, Tom. The tone of the promotion and the way you say something matters in how you write the copy, how you read it or how you’re saying it.
The danger of reading something scripted is that you’re going to come off as inauthentic compared to your normal voice speaking in your podcast. You don’t want that. If I’m doing a promotion for another company, it better be something I know, understand and hopefully, like. I’m an actual advocate of it in general, not because I’m being paid on a promo for it. I want to speak about it naturally. That’s part of your tone. How it’s written, that copy is critical. It’s got to be written in your voice. We’ve had this happen with a bunch of ads from Hewlett-Packard on one of our podcasts. How many ads did we record, Tracy?
We ended up recording nine, but we’ll talk about why we recorded so many.
You want to not only take the copy they give you, but we riff on it and adjust a bit and make it more our voice. If I don’t normally use the word, it’s more of a descriptive word. If there’s a word that isn’t how I would say things, I might change that word.
As long as you’re not changing the essence of their product and service, you’re not changing the names of anything. Feel free to do that slight embellishment word or the pace at which you speak. The other thing about the tone that I want to mention is that you slightly amped up a promotion. The energy level should be a bit higher than you normally bring. I’m passionate, excited and energetic on my show and I talk fast already. An ad should be like that. It should be slightly sped up from the way that you normally speak.
When Tom does it, he has to speed up his thought process and how he speaks in an ad. You want to get the time crunch in. You want to get it in that time span. Do that slightly energized because thinking about it as like, “A promotion.” It’s got that energy like a promoter is. You need to put that energy into it as well. Amp up who you are already and put that into the tone of the advertisement.
You made me think about this scene from Howard Stern’s Private Parts where he’s an early DJ at a station in Connecticut. He knows he has an ad he has to read. There’s an ad spot here for some new sports store.
It’s a sporting goods company.When you script it, you need to speak it. Click To Tweet
It’s like Sullivan Sport or something. Who knows what it was? He can’t find the copy, so he ad-libs. He’s like, “I love Sullivan Sport. I used to go there all the time when I was a kid. When my parents needed to get me a baseball, we would drive over there and it was always like a party.” He finds the copy and the copy says, “The grand opening of Sullivan Sport is this Saturday.” It’s funny.
This is a thing, adding a personal story, adding a little personal anecdote. That’s a great way to do that, but not if it overly lengthens it. Be thinking about that. If you’ve got a spot, try to add that in without overly lengthening it. Keep this in mind. Your job is now a promoter, not just a host. Hold that energy as you record it and do it. Like you record your normal show, you record your ads the same way. I turn the video on, even though I’m not going to save the video because it’s only an audio ad only. We don’t record the videos the same way.
I turn the video on because it helps me look at myself. Am I looking energetic? Am I using my hands like I normally do? It helps me see if I hit that tone that I’m looking for. It helps me work through that. I’m also then not talking to a computer. I am talking to myself, but it makes me feel I’m on Facebook Live. It makes me feel there is an audience out there by turning the camera on. That helps me. Find out what works for you.
If you see yourself and you recognize your facial expression, if you smile as you’re doing it as much as you can, that improves your tone as well as your energy level, how you’re sitting, how enthusiastic you are. I cannot record ads at 5:00 in the afternoon. I am spent for the day. It is not my time of day. If I’m going to record ads, I’m recording them before noon.
I usually tape them to his computer at the end of the day. First thing in the morning, they’re there for them. That’s how I do it. We know what works for each of us. Keep that in mind and help yourself with that tone and voice because it’s going to make the promotion convert better. That’s our goal here. Remember, we’re talking about how to make them more effective and convert. That’s the purpose of doing this.
We didn’t say this yet, but it is true that a host-read ad, meaning spoken by you, the host, instead of a third-party voiceover talent, is more effective. We find conversion is higher when the host speaks it. By the time you’re putting ads into your show or any promos into your show, you’ve established some position of authority with the listeners. When you talk about some product or service, they’re going to listen and take you seriously.
I want to qualify that slightly what you said there, Tom. It’s okay to use your voiceover artist occasionally in a mix-up of ads. We’re going to talk about the mix-up right next. Using your voice is important. Using your voiceover artist is okay as another option and as a mix-up option, so you don’t have the same ads repetitively. Using the voice pre-programmed from the company, that’s where you don’t want to do it. That’s where it doesn’t work as well. That’s the qualifier that I want to make.
Your voice of authority, people are used to that. Your voiceover artist is a voice of authority on your show. You can utilize that when you need to have that. Somebody who has a different energy. Sometimes you can’t talk about it because you’re a male host and you need to be talking about a female-oriented product and a female voice would work better for that. There are times at which to do that and that’s when you can employ your voiceover artist to help you out with that. Using the voice of the company’s pre-programmed ads, that’s what we find tends to not work as well in a podcast.
I agree with you, Tracy. Let’s say I’m a host and I’m just a man and not a co-host. We have an ad for something that would appeal more to women. I agree with you on having a female voiceover artist to record that. In that case, you as the host may need to transfer a little authority to that voiceover artist and have a transition or lead-in.
Unless that voice artist is your regular one.
I’m getting ahead of myself because transitions are coming. Keep that in mind.
Let’s talk about mixing it up. This is part of the Podetize system. It’s not part of everyone’s system. Keep in mind, this is one of those moments which we’re talking about. We deploy ads across our entire show catalog. Why do we do that? We do that because 60% of our listenership happens on the back catalog. It happens on episodes that are not currently airing in the current month. If you have 10,000 listeners a month, 6,000 of them are on shows that aren’t currently airing or brand-new. If you’re editing in promotions and ads only into your current four episodes in the given month, you’re only getting 4,000 listeners if you do it that way.
We have a system that mixes ads across the entire show catalog. Our system mixes them in and takes some out so you can remove, change, mix them up over time. Part of that process is why we deploy it in this way and why we mix it up because, for some of our shows, we’ve got 600 episodes. That’s a lot of episodes to hear the same ad again and again.
We do a mix-up. What we did in this last round or the last time we put ads into our 600 episodes is that we had three different ad copies. We had different copies, three different types of ads. They were for three different purposes. We took them and we each recorded them. Tom recorded 3, I recorded 3 and our voiceover artist recorded 3. We ended up with nine different audio recording promotions. It’s the same copy, but three different copies.
Each of the three of us read, recorded and ad-libbed in our style a bit each of three approved ad copies, but each one is the same ad copy to the three of us. It’s not only a different voice, but it was slightly unique because of how we each delivered it or read it, maybe changed a word here or there.
They each went to the same URL, the same promotion. There were three different ones. Overall, we ended up with nine different sounding ads to mix across 600 episodes. That’s how we’re mixing it up.
One of the other things I wanted to clarify is that you didn’t say it before, Tracy, is about the 60% of listens on average of all your show episodes. To be clear, some people, especially us podcasters, when we’re in the weeds of our podcasts, are like, “That’s an old episode. Why do I care if that has a current ad?” I want to make sure it’s clear what Tracy was saying. About 60% of the total plays in your episodes in that month are not coming from the new episodes you publish this month. They’re coming from older episodes. Here is the point. Those plays are new to whoever’s listening to it, even though they’re old episodes. That’s why this is so important.
The people that are new to you could be benefiting from that promotion. They could be learning more about what’s going on and what you do or whatever the promotion is, what your sponsor does. This is where you don’t want to lose the capitalization of your back catalog of those back episode listens, especially because they are current listeners. They’re actively looking for something, and it might be you if you remind them that you’re here and you have something. That’s where we look at that as critically important.
That’s why we designed the Podetize system the way we did so that it does take advantage of this. The other thing that we do is when we mix it up, we also do block-out episodes. We don’t allow ads in certain episodes. If you had a very sensitive topic subject, we would block ads from that. If it’s a highly emotional episode, a highly controversial episode, we block ads from that. It’s inappropriate and helps the listener appreciate that you understand the sensitivity of the material. If you’re randomizing them and mixing them up, you don’t know which ads go on it. You don’t want to have this odd thing happening.
It’s in complete tonal contrast to what’s going on there. We do set certain episodes and saying, “These are no go. No ads will ever run in these.” We have about 12, not very many out of our 600, where we talked about 3D print guns. We always block that episode. A sponsor may not want to be associated with that topic. That’s another reason we do that.
Keep in mind that this is something that you have complete control over when you have your podcast hosted on Podetize. Tracy is saying we don’t do that. That’s we, the hosts of the show, deciding we don’t want to put ads on these particular episodes. You have complete control over the ability to omit ads from any episode you want to. Understand that.Ads don't convert. Ads are brand awareness. Click To Tweet
Many hosts and admixing systems out there do not give you a choice because of how they stream ads on there. Keep in mind that you have a choice here, but you don’t always have it everywhere else. It can be problematic. You may need to disclose that because if your sponsor finds out about it, we had one on 3D printing guns. If Hewlett-Packard found out about it, they might be very upset about being associated with that topic. We blocked that one on purpose. These are some things to think about when you’re mixing it up.
We have a system that allows you to randomize it. You can say, “I want any of these three ads to run in the pre-roll position. I want these three ads to run randomly in the mid-roll position.” It’s mixing it up for you. It’s automatically going in so that someone who’s binge-listening doesn’t hear Tom’s or Tracy’s ad. It doesn’t work like that. That way, they’re always mixing up. Having nine as an option to mix up gives it a much more randomized feel and personalized feel.
This is tapping into the binge-listener experience and making them feel special and not overly sold to. They don’t realize that it’s the same ad. The tone, energy and copy sounds a bit different. Getting it repetitive for them so that they do get the ending message, the call to action. That’s repeating for them. Repeating it in a good way that leaves an impression, which is likely to get them to engage.
It’s very well done with the HP ads if you listen to all of them. They are talking about different aspects and things that HP is doing to move the 3D printing industry forward, so they’re not the same.
I’ll tell you what I’ll do. I’ll link to the ads in the episode so that you can hear them. I’ll link you right to the Dropbox ads and you’ll be able to check them out.
We can embed each of them as a list in the post. You can play it right there.
We’ll go even further, making it easy for you to hit play and check them out. You can check out the three voices and the randomization of them for how we utilize them. In that way, you can hear what’s going on. HP gets a little boost on a different show. Why not? Your sponsor’s not going to be upset by that.
If you have any interest in 3D printing, then yes. I don’t know how many people are reading this who are into 3D printing. Probably some.
I want to touch on the placements. We did a whole episode on it, where we talked about what makes a pre-roll ad, a post-roll ad and a mid-roll ad, and it has to do with its placement in the episode. It’s a radio term. It doesn’t always work out well. We have multiple mid-roll spots. We have a pre-roll, which pre-roll would technically be right after the formal introduction. That would be a pre-roll spot. We usually introduce our guest and then we put a mid-roll and then we have the interview and then we put another mid-roll and then we do our post-conversation back and forth about what we learned. We could have a post-roll right before our outro.
We have four spots we can utilize. We typically have a 45-minute episode. We can have four spots in there. We don’t always use them. With these, we might only use one of the mid-roll spots, not both of them. That’s a common thing for us. We choose what we want to do. If we had multiple sponsors, I might use both positions so that it mixes it up enough. For this particular thing, if we’re only doing it with one sponsor, we usually only use one. That’s how we usually do it.
Let’s be clear about that. We do have some podcasters who have 3 or 4 different sponsors in a given month. They’re running ads from each of them. They will run 2 or 3 in a given episode, which will work if you want, or you can rotate each different episode that has an ad from a different sponsor.
This is the other thing about it. It’s thinking about the ad use spots. We all love pre-roll and post-roll except for quick mentions because what happens is that you intro outro before and after it. You don’t want that whole constant, extra-long, lengthy thing. We only use that for, “This episode is sponsored by,” or a quick mention, “Don’t forget about.” Something like that. These are the positioning. We talk about that more in that specific episode on the ad placement spots.
Let’s talk about those transitions, Tom, because we don’t prerecord ads in with our episode like many people do. We don’t plan that at the ten-minute mark, we’re going to take a break like you do on radio and put in an ad here. We don’t like to do that. We like to let the conversation flow and the episode flow naturally. The transition spot to an ad or to a promotion is required to be on the promotion itself side.
You want your episode to sound perfectly normal if it plays without any ads in it. You wouldn’t want there to be a section where you say, “I’ll be right back after this message.” All of a sudden, there’s no messaging. You say, “We’re back.” I’ve heard that on other podcasts where they don’t have an ad or edit it out but left the transition through there.
Here’s what happens if you’re a binge listener. I know so many of you podcast hosts out there are not podcasts listeners. Why? I’ve interviewed hundreds of you. 9 times out of 10, you will admit you don’t listen to podcasts. You’re not a listener. Take this from the listener’s perspective, which I have because I am a heavy podcast listener. I interviewed them as well, so I understand what drives binge-listeners and what they are. When they hear that ad spot, especially when you do it in a show that’s beginning because you haven’t sold the ads.
It’s your first twenty episodes and you’re doing this like, “We’ll be back in a moment.” The moment happens and no promotion happens. You know what it says to the listener? Your show is not successful enough to sell ads. That’s the answer that they get back. That’s what they feel and believe. They think, “They’re going to sell me out. They’re going to sell those ads to whoever they can get the placement for. This isn’t a show that’s in it for me, the listener. This is a show that’s in it to make money.” This is what I want to remind you.
Do you know why your Joe Rogan show is an hour and a half or longer? It’s because he can fit more ad spots in and make more money. That’s the absolute truth of it. True listeners know that. Be conscious of that. Our system of not putting the promotion and the pre-spot have to market being able to put it on the promotion side of it eliminates the point of that at the beginning, until they get into their show. You love your show and are happy to listen to an ad at that moment.
From a tech perspective, what you do is you may record that ad separately. You may have a voiceover artist record it, but you as the host should, in either case, record a transition, a lead-in to the ad and then a transition out of it back to the episode. Within this one MP3 file, that’s the ad that gets uploaded or inserted has the context within it where it says, “I asked a question of my guests,” and then I say, “We’re going to hear the answer to that question right after this important message.”
It transitions into the ad. After the ads, “Let’s hear the answer to that question,” or something like that. The example Tracy gave where she was talking about I’m a male host of a show and this particular ad would be received better by women if a woman spoke it, I can quickly, in that transition, not only transition to the ad, but transfer a little authority. I can say, “We’re going to hear the answer to that question right after this important message from a friend of not mine. Her name is Mary. You’re going to be interested to hear what she has to say about this subject.”
You do something like, “For all those women listening out there, I want to honor you. I have daughters. I believe that this product is worth talking about, so I’ve asked my friend, Mary, to come and talk about it.”
That’s even better. Had I thought about it more, that would have been a better transition.Short, easy, consistent. That's what we're going for. Click To Tweet
You wanted to have something that not only transitions authority but personalizes it. Say, “I’m a guy with daughters. I’ve been married to my wife for many years. I know this would mean a lot to her.” You’re making that personal connection still to you because you’re the one the audience loves. That is important. Why are you bringing this into them? You’re giving it context. The point of that transition part is to give it context in both how it’s being listened to within the episode and how it will be presented and who will be presenting it.
Those transitions are critical because they help give it context and help it be received better. Also, they don’t make you look like an amateur. They prevent you from looking like an amateur. They make you look like this is a professionally put together to show.
Who cares about the audience? Who is working hard to make sure that we are receiving promotions and advertisements that matter? That is important. I want to touch on randomizing. Why do we like the randomizing? We like the randomizing because it mixes it up. In that randomizing, we still want to be consistent about our call to action. That is important in making that one single call to action or a process for the call to action. In other words, remember, we always say here on the show that everything that you do has got to reinforce the URL.
You’re going to go to FeedYourBrand.co. If you’re going to do something where you’re going to have some promotion over it, maybe you’re going to do FeedYourBrand.co/offer. A word that’s simple to remember, that’s related. Sometimes I’ll use a name of if it’s short when we did HP, we did /HP because that’s short. It’s easy to remember. I listened to an ad about HP and I like to find out how to find them. You go there and you are able to get through to any of the promotions. If you’re running multiple promotions, I like to put them on the same page.
That’s our process for doing it, so it doesn’t matter which promotion or which advertisement they listen to. They go to a page that might have all three. They could be like, “I didn’t hear the episode that had that offer or that webinar.” This also prevents you from your sponsor from screwing it up. It’s the answer here. This is what I found over time.
It’s very long. All these numbers and letters, you want me to recite that?
You can’t recite that on the air. That’s the number one thing. The next part of it, though, is they changed their promotion and the links are broken. You have broken ads sitting there, which is why we developed the system of removing the ads because it was happening so often that people were changing this. This way, all you have to do is re-forward the URL on your end. You’re in control of it. They are not. We always do the one thing that we always require it to be a forwarding URL from our website to whatever it is.
With HP, we have jump links. They’re tracking it. It’s converting. They’re following everything. That jump link comes through from our forwarding URL page to them. That’s simply how we control that. You need to be in control of that. Otherwise, you’ll have broken links and that’ll make you look like less of a pro and that’s what we’re trying to avoid.
The other thing is brand reinforcement. Always have the URL that you’re promoting your show be on your website. That’s, to me, a critical requirement because you don’t even promote somebody else’s website. You don’t want to send people directly from your show to another website. You want to send them to your website, even if that’s a forwarding URL that goes out to another website. Make them type in your website.com, reinforce that in the brand. It helps your brand.
They’re already aware of it because you’re also reciting it at the outro, so it reinforces it there. You’ve got a lot of it. That’s not something they’re going to forget. That’s useful for the sponsor or the promotion that you’re running in that. Short, easy, consistent, that’s what we’re going for. Another option that Tom has had some people do is do these text offers. It’s not the worst thing ever. There are also numbers to remember if they’re not writing it down or can’t click it. Here is one of the recommendations that we make on that.
If you want to make a text offer, which is not a bad thing because most people listen to podcasts on their phone, it’s easy switching over to the messaging app while you’re still listening. It doesn’t disrupt the listening. That’s a fine thing. Type that in. The problem is that you heard the ad, it repeated, it’s hard to rewind and get to it. People don’t love that.
If you do that, put it in your descriptive paragraph. Put your call to action for the ad right at the bottom of it so that they can open up the episode and see that right there in the description and then go, “I got the number.” It conditions them that that will be there for them. That’s also an easy way for them not to forget. Make your text number assigned to it. It’s not always the easiest thing. It’d be great if you’ve got 1313, but if you don’t, who knows what it is.
It’s usually five digits, which is better than trying to remember a phone number or something.
Whatever word you have them type makes that simple, easy, and consistent from one promotion to another. They’re always doing it. The word that you choose is consistent and easy. Maybe you want to do an offer every single time if that fits it. Sometimes it might not be an offer but always do offer. They are like, “There were five offers this month. I’m giving you all five of them. Choose which one you want.”
That way, you don’t have to be overly specific about and go, “Offer 1, offer 2, offer 3,” or anything weird like that. It can be cumbersome. Speaking of testing and removing things. Sometimes we like to test ads and that’s part of why we did this nine-ad process. We wanted to see which ads were working and which ones weren’t.
We want to see that the ones Tom read convert the most. That’s what we want.
It’s always a competition here. “Who does our audience love the most? It’ll probably be Chris, our voiceover artist.”
At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter. I was just teasing.
You can mix up the URL or the offer names based on who’s reading it, too, if you’re doing that testing. Don’t make it overly complex, but you can at least do that, so you’re tracking where they’re going. We could do a 3DStartPoint.com/Tracy. They go to the ones that Tom said, it still sends them to the right page, but it’s a forwarding URL into that tracking the fact that Tom’s ads converted higher. You can always do something like that in terms of testing. You remove the ads that aren’t working and then the next month. This is the one thing that I want to give you.
I like to give our promotions 30 days before we start mixing things up because you don’t get a good sense of how it’s worked across all the episodes. Have our binge listeners caught up with the episodes? Where are they in the process? We don’t get through all of that unless you give it about 30 days before you start messing with it and making changes. If you got some immediate feedback, people are like, “I don’t understand what you said, but go ahead and fix that.” Unless you get that, give it time.
I don’t have anything else about podcasts promotions and ad creation. There is art and science to creating great ads. There are people who get paid lots of money to do that. Here in the podcast world, being genuine, being authentic, being you and putting it out there, doing that is going to do a lot better for you. Picking and choosing promotions that you believe in are going to go long ways to get your audience. Even if you make every mistake under the book and how you present and offer it. We can help you be a pro and refine that by giving you this advice and all of this. The thing is that doing that is going to take you 80% of the way there.
Thanks so much for reading, everybody. We’ll be back with another great episode.
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